UEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

All other trucks not mentioned above.
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RANGER
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UEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by RANGER »

Farby,
What can you tell me about the 3000 2000 Gallon capacity Semitrrailers the Army bought in 1944 to transport fuel in?
Your Quartermaster reports seem to be lacking important information, especially the 1999 study.

How come he left out the Ben Hur, and numerous other vehicles with tanks?
Last edited by RANGER on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATIONS IN THE ASCZ

Post by RANGER »

Does anyone know the "G" number for the 2000 Gallon fuel servicing semitrailers the Army ordered to transport motor fuel in? It is easy to look up, they were manufactured by 6 contractors. It is in several publications. Does anyone know what vehicle was used as a prime mover for this trailer which played an important role in transporting fuel to the front lines?
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY

Post by Robbo »

I love the smell of cosmoline in the morning!
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY

Post by RANGER »

Robbo, you are the greatest. :thumbup:
The 2000 Gallon Semitrailer is but one player in the big picture.
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by RANGER »

Good related reading, "ROAD to VICTORY" by David P. Colley.
It is about the Red Ball Express.
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by pfarber »

I'll ask you to use my name, as your attempt at belittling me only show your lack of insight into the topics we discuss.

As for the 2000 gallon gas haulers... if you bothered to read the information I posted it clearly shows the Army shyed away from putting large fuel dumps at the front.

The high capacity fuel trailers were used to fill jerry cans, that were then transported to the front. That's how they did it. Large fixed POL dumps are simply not something you need at the front.

If you *REALLY* want me to, and if you ask *REALLY* nice I can dig up what you want.

So what if the Army had 2000,3000,5000 or 10,000 gallon fuel transports. Big deal. rail cars were used frequently and were seen as a HUGE hindrance. 1 well placed attack or accident and BOOM, you are out fuel for a division.

Whats *REALLY* funny is that when I posted how the Overlord convoys were fueled, you glossed it over. THATS HOW THEY DID IT, WITH JERRY CANS. How do you think they fueled vehicles once in france, with large tankers? NO, they continued with the jerry cans as it was QUICK, a Jimmy could carry more gas that way and just about every vehicle had the large mouth tanks to facilitate fueling directly from them.

Here's the report FROM A QM REPORT ON FUELING FOR D-DAY OPERATIONS:

At each dump's eight delivery points, there was kept a stack of 500 filled cans of gasoline and a proportionate number of five-gallon cans of lube oil, oil measures, and cans of grease. Only one grade of gasoline was dispensed--eighty--octane. There were two grades of lube oil: 30 HD for cars and trucks and 50 HD for motorcycles and medium tanks. There was also some diesel oil.

When a convoy came to a stop at a group of eight delivery points, each driver jumped out and checked his oil. The assistant driver hustled to the can dump and started emptying cans into the gasoline tank. When the driver found out how much oil he needed, he was handed a five-gallon can of oil with the top off and a funnel in the can.

The net result was that three men were servicing each vehicle.When the convoy moved on, supply trucks picked up the empties and left full cans. They took the empties to a nearby point for refill from tank cars at railroad sidings.


Where are they fueling from thousand gallon tankers????!!!!?!!!?!?!? Read the OFFICIAL QM REPORT!!!!!!!!!
"The RH mirror also comes in handy to look back and see if that kid who ran across your path in a parade made it." -Ranger
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by pfarber »

Here's another QM report snippet:

POL on the Red Ball Express
Dr. Steven E. Anders
Quartermaster Professional Bulletin, Spring 1989

Getting fuel from the beach to the front lines as U.S. Divisions raced across France in 1944.

The first assault vehicles rolled ashore and immediately began stacking their cargoes of 5-gallon cans. They were placed in small, widely scattered dump sites throughout the lodgment area. This simple method of open storage made Class III supply easily accessible. At the same time, this storage method rendered Class III supplies less vulnerable to enemy attack.

From a different report regarding D-Day convoys and embarkation for landing:

Five-gallon cans were used exclusively. Fueling with gasoline vending pumps from bulk storage was not done because of the continual movement of so many vehicles and the wide area they covered.

MAINTAINING SUPPLY OF DUMPS
The supply of the dumps was maintained by:

1. Trucks from inland points with filled cans, and
2. Trucks that hauled empty cans to nearby rail sidings where they were filled from tank cars and brought back.

Delivery to using vehicles was made form each dump in two ways:

1. From small stacks of cans scattered along the roadside. and
2. From special trucks that took cans to side roads or across fields to vehicles that did not use the main road.
Last edited by pfarber on Fri May 08, 2009 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The RH mirror also comes in handy to look back and see if that kid who ran across your path in a parade made it." -Ranger
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by pfarber »

Here's an interesting snippet:

From:

Fuels and Lubricants for Johnny Doughboy
LIEUTENANT JOHN K. EVANS, Q.M.C.
The Quartermaster Review
May-June 1944

Nothing must stop or delay the constant flow of oil from gushing well to sub-dodging tanker; from port of debarkation storage tank to the final transporting receptacle -- one of the twenty-million-odd five-gallon cans.

So here is about as much as I am going to put into this... a June 1944 QM overview of QM POL supply... stating the final distribution method for fuel.. the 5 gallon Gerry Can. The reason the 5 gallon can was so usefull? The LARGE MOUTH gas tanks standard on all Army vehicles (late 42/early43) did not require a nozzle. The fuel tanks had a big ole hole and a fueling tube to allow the Jerry can to dump its contents quickly without spillage.

The gun may not be smoking.. but its pretty damn hot.

I await your inane response.
"The RH mirror also comes in handy to look back and see if that kid who ran across your path in a parade made it." -Ranger
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by Kiwi »

I have no wish to participate in your thread, which is by the way fascinating.
But here is a perhaps pertinent image.
I scanned it from a 1946 copywrited volume.
It purports to show a front line U.S. fuel dump during the German 'Ardennes Offensive'.

Image
Brent.
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by RANGER »

Farby, this all started with a simple thread on Fast Fill Fuel Tank Necks, that refered to information on the change over to large neck fuel fill pipes on combat vehicles and the ability to pump 5 gallons of fuel into a fuel tank in 40 seconds. The information was taken from Army Ordnance publications and not post war reports on logistics. There was no mention of filling fuel tanks from GI cans without nozzles.
Now we gotta find out what they intended to do with all the extra nozzles.
Have you tried to refuel your MB or a LWB CCKW Cargo from 5 Gallon GI can without using the nozzle?
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by RANGER »

If one is interested in 5 Gallon GI Cans, there are some interesting articles on GI Cans posted on the G-503 site. One member by the name of Gerrycans is an expert on GI can history, he has a collection of hundreds, including those of the enemy.
Perhaps Mr Pfarber could exchange information wirh him and get back with a report.
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by pfarber »

RANGER wrote:Farby, this all started with a simple thread on Fast Fill Fuel Tank Necks, that refered to information on the change over to large neck fuel fill pipes on combat vehicles and the ability to pump 5 gallons of fuel into a fuel tank in 40 seconds. The information was taken from Army Ordnance publications and not post war reports on logistics. There was no mention of filling fuel tanks from GI cans without nozzles.
Now we gotta find out what they intended to do with all the extra nozzles.
Have you tried to refuel your MB or a LWB CCKW Cargo from 5 Gallon GI can without using the nozzle?
By the TM the nozzles were standard issue for the cab (right side).

You say the large mouth tank was for faster refueling. Where did you get this '5 gallons in 40 seconds' number? Your car gas tank is fed at almost 20 gallons per minute. Why is there not a 3-4 inch gas filler? Because you don't need it. The fuel is not displacing air that quickly to need 3+ inches of filler.

Now, take a gas can (without the spout). Open your gas tank (the one with the large mouth) and match them up. Almost a perfect fit. Try that with a small mouth gas tank and you pour most of the gas on the ground.

I guess I'll have to take pictures of this simple demonstration to convince you... but I doubt it will help.

The Army standardized on large mouth gas tanks to support direct fueling from 5 gallon jerry cans.

What do I need to produce to convince you? Tell me what you want. I'm sure I can find it.
"The RH mirror also comes in handy to look back and see if that kid who ran across your path in a parade made it." -Ranger
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by Forgotten Field »

Great topic! Just as an aside and to add to the debate, I have a bit of information about the 14th Liaison Squadron, part of the 9th Air Force, but attached to the 3rd US Army for operations from May 1944 to August 1945. The 14th flew mostly Stinson L-5's. The photos in the 14th unit history show a CCKW gasoline tanker and call it the fuel section, which was attached to squadron headquarters. But in interviews with three of the original squadron members, all of them said that they fueled from 5 gallon cans when in the field, and usually fueled from them even when in the Squadron headquarters area. One of the members who we have on video tape told us that when he went out with a detachment, they took two jeeps and a WC51- the WC51 was filled to the top of the canvas with fuel cans. The fuel used by the planes was 80 octane, same as the vehicles. None of the pilots, who fueled their own planes, ever filled up in France with anything other than a 5 gallon can. When the planes were in the field with the Corps, they were located at an airstrip near the Corps HQ. I imagine that if they had the ability to fuel with a tanker, they would have taken it, but my guess is that they didn't have the opportunity.
Nothing to see here, just move along...
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Re: FRONTLINE FARBY & FUEL TRANSPORT OPERATION IN THE ASCZ

Post by pfarber »

There was a Korean war document that I posted in another thread that mentioned that a CCKW can carry more gas via 5-gallon gas cans than 55 gallon drums.

My guess was that this was true of most vehicles. A 55 gallon drum is approx 450lbs, and the bung pump would leave the last few gallons on the bottom. Say a 1/4 ton trailer. 1 55gal drum and you are at capacity. 2 would probably break it (900+ lbs). Yet 500 lbs in 5 gal cans (gas is 8lbs\gal) is 11 jerry cans. You could probably get 15-20 in a 1/4ton trailer without breaking it. 15 5 gallon cans is 75 gallons at 600lbs.

The math for jerry cans is VERY favorable compared to 2000 gallon trucks, large POL dumps or rail cars.

Now a jerry can be completely emptied, carried easily, and stacked to a vehicles capacity.

A 5 gallon drum was also not preferred because you needed a bung wrench, a pump, hose, nozzle etc. That's a lot of work compared to the simply jerry can.
"The RH mirror also comes in handy to look back and see if that kid who ran across your path in a parade made it." -Ranger
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