Caramel Oil?

[wc63-1944]

Hi all,
I've been doing a few repairs on the WC-63 over the last 18 months, rewired, new fuel line, floor of the cab welded, re-bushed the transfer levers and renewed the shaft and all of the associated works involved in all of that, painting etc. After moving the pto shifter lever a few times to refit the floor plates, the oil seals on the shifter shaft had started to leak, and I mean a near constant drip. So I ordered the seals and set out today to renew them, that's when things started to look a little awkward.

The first concern was when I drained the oil, it looked like caramel running from the transmission case. Has anyone encountered this problem? Could it be because the truck hasn't been run for about 3-4 years or has water got into the transmission case somehow?

The second concern was when I removed one of the old oil seals there was a lot of black gritty oil came out of the pto.

I'm thinking of removing the pto and checking things out inside it and flushing it and the transmission case out. So second question, how easy is it to take the pto out and refit it? The manual makes it sound easy but looking at it it dosen't look that easy, as there's not a lot of space between the pto and brake pedal/brake pedal bracket.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Chris.

[Ian Jamieson]

Hi Chris,
the thick oil could be caused by a number of different things such as, the last owner used very high viscosity oil, or added some grease to the oil to try to thicken the oil some, or has added a a viscosity improver. Or it could be good ole crud in the oil. I tend to the crud diagnosis as this helps to explain the gritty substance around the oil seals. This can also come from oil that's been overheated.

The PTO is not difficult to remove, I use a floor jack to support the PTO to make life easier. The top bolt is a bugger to get at so remove the left floor plate to make life a little easier.

Frankly though, if the oil is as bad as you indicate, I would be tempted to pull the transmission and dismantle for inspection.

Cheers
Ian

[Ray Edsall]

G,Day Chris . If water get,s into oil it can turn whitish . I would say that you might have got some into you tranny .Just dump all the old oil and refill with new . Ray.

[wc63-1944]

Thanks for the replies guys,
I'll remove the PTO, flush it out and have a look in the transmission case to see if there's anything that may be amiss, then refill with fresh gear oil.
Good point Ian, the PTO may be full of crud, that has contaminated the oil. With it being lower than the drain plug on the transmission box it never gets fully drained and the crud must collect there. I just need to hope for a dry weekend to be able to remove the box.
I'll report back when I manage to get the work done.
Thanks again,
Chris.

[Andersun]

What does it smell like? Usually if there is water in gear oil and it's been there for a while, it smells really bad!!! I can't even describe it!

You can take the top tower off the tranny and leave it in place if you don't want to remove the whole thing (knowing you have a PTO and all) You could clean it all out that way.....

[fred ransome]

What I don't like in all of this discussion is that you said there was grit on the inside of the seal. Is the grit magnetic? Knowing that the transmission doesn't NOT have synchos I suspect the leading edges of the gears are chipped; from lightly to heavily. These chipped teeth normally won't cause any problems. But the loose chips in the oil could damage the seals, and needle bearings in the transmission. Personnally I would drop the entire transmission and drain and thoroughly flush it. Inspect everything and go from there. It probably hasn't had any attention since 1945!

[wc63-1944]

Right, here's what I've found so far.
I suspect water is the cause of the caramel coloured oil as there doesn't appear to be any other problems, but it doesn't smell any worse than normal gear oil.
I removed the PTO, you were right Ian it wasn't too difficult but that top bolt is a bugger! There wasn't a lot of gunk and it wasn't black at the bottom although there were a few small slivers of steel. I have flushed the PTO out, had a small magnet in there, spun all the gears, flushed it out again and then again. There doesn't appear to be any problems with it.
I have checked in the transmission case and apart from a couple of light surface rust spots on a couple of the gears I can't see much amiss. I have had a small magnet in there and there were no slivers of steel or gunk present, I still need to give a thorough flush out though. The Transmission box was also refurbished by the Norwegian Army and has the blue silicone sealant on it and a rebuild plate riveted to the side, I need to check the date on it, (it's difficult to read) but the engine has a rebuild date of November or July 1984, I'm not sure if the Norwegians put the day first or the month. I'll have a better look at the transmission when the weather fines up.
Cheers,
Chris.

[Kaegi]

color is probably just because its been in there so long it absorbed a little moisture. these trannies are very tough and probably would have been fine for many 1000s of miles had you done nothing. gear oil still work really well even with a bit of moisture.

[Ian Jamieson]

Hi Chris,
that's good news!

Suggest you refit the PTO, remove the drive shaft between the Gearbox and transfer case. Part fill the gearbox with diesel fuel and start the engine. Allow the engine to idle with the gearbox in "a" gear and the diesel will effectively wash/flush out the transmission and PTO at the same time.

Drain and repeat and jobs done! Diesel fuel is approximately equal to SAE 7 in viscosity so no harm will come to the internals by running them in this way.

Cheers
Ian

[Ray Edsall]

G,Day Ian . Could you just jack up the arse end and have the same result . Why go to all the trouble of removing the little drive shaft . Ray

[Ian Jamieson]

G'day Ray,
yep, you can do that but I've seen vehicles come off the stands before, its wasn't pretty

Ian

[Kaegi]

wc63 the tcase has a neutral position between high and low range. I would still jack up the rear just incase

[Ian Jamieson]

Hi Kaegi,
darn, I forgot about the 2 speed xfer case , good call.

Cheers

[wc63-1944]

Thanks again for all the replies and suggestions chaps.
That's a cracking idea. I think I might make up a temporary blank plate for the side of the transmission case, and run it with the diesel in. That way I'll be able to drain all the diesel off and any metal particles won't settle in the lower PTO.

Cheers,
Chris.